28 Pilot Length

[21NAVY]

Can anyone weigh in on the correct length of a 28 pilot? I have an old one, no markings, in the white, not a mark of blue. it's 4.283 in length. The Savage G.I. 28A1 one I'm comparing to is 4.518, or .235 longer.

 

From the previous posts the colt pilots were blued, and this old one has never been blued. it has some pitting, and is otherwise correct dimensionally to the savage, and has a pilot hole in each end of the buffer shaft. No cross hole like the savage ones had and Colt didn't. The short fat end of the pilot has some radius milling, the front seems pretty square cut as opposed to the radius work on both ends of the Savage part.

 

I don't have any drawings or another 28 pilot to measure against. Any help would be appreciated.

 

Thanks,

Happy new year.

[dalbert]

21NAVY,

 

Here is the photo you asked me to post for you.

 

http://www.sturmgewehr.com/dalbert/MGBoards/BufferPilots.jpg

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

[TD.]

21Navy,

Where did you read all Colt era Model of 1928 buffer assembly's are blue?

 

It is hard to tell with any degree of certainty based on this one picture, but it looks like a Colt part to me. We need someone with an original Colt 28 Navy to take a few pictures of their buffer assembly and measure the pilot rod. That would probably solve this mystery. Sorry, I don't have a Colt Navy Thompson.

[21NAVY]

21Navy,

Where did you read all Colt era Model of 1928 buffer assembly's are blue?

 

It is hard to tell with any degree of certainty based on this one picture, but it looks like a Colt part to me. We need someone with an original Colt 28 Navy to take a few pictures of their buffer assembly and measure the pilot rod. That would probably solve this mystery. Sorry, I don't have a Colt Navy Thompson.

When I posted up the picture to Dave, I remarked that the original, original 21 colt pilots were blued, and the 28's were apparently in the white or perhaps plated. I put a 10X glass to this one and it apprears to be plated.

 

Thanks.

[gijive]

Original Colt 1928 Navy pilots were not blued, they were in the white. They also do not have the hole for the recoil spring assembly tool like the WWII pilots.

[21NAVY]

Original Colt 1928 Navy pilots were not blued, they were in the white. They also do not have the hole for the recoil spring assembly tool like the WWII pilots.

 

Ok, Great! Thanks for the input everyone.

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

Original Colt 1928 Navy pilots were not blued, they were in the white. They also do not have the hole for the recoil spring assembly tool like the WWII pilots.

 

While the 1928 blueprint for the buffer/pilot does not indicate the hole at the end, nor do the 1935 revisions on the same blueprint, the Colt Navy TSMG's with offset Enfield swivels that the Army purchased in 1930 for testing at the Aberdeen Proving Ground do show buffer/pilots with the hole. These are in the white buffer/pilots as well. I know that Frank Iannamico stated in his book that the early M1928A1 pilot rods did not have the hole drilled in them. But that does not necessarily mean that the Colt Navy pilot rods did not have the hole. The photo of the 1928 pilot rod below the 1921 pilot and buffer on page 70 appears to be blued and not in the white. This may be an early M1928A1 pilot rod sans hole.

 

The blueprint lenght specs say 4.307 for the 1928 Navy Colt buffer pilot. Mine is 4.323 with hole.

[TD.]

Arthur,

I thought you may reply to this thread since you have a Colt 28 Navy. Did you say your buffer pilot is in the white with a hole? If so, I am guessing your 28 Navy has a serial number higher than 10,000. Not because of the color, but because of the hole.

 

Would you post a picture. I have never seen a Colt era 28 Navy buffer pilot that has a hole. Or was blue in color.

 

Do you think 21Navy's buffer pilot is a Colt pilot?

 

Great post. The blueprints in Thompson: The American Legend are worth the price of the book. I really appreciate how you study the fine detail of these prints. That is a lesson we can all take note of.

 

Thank you.

[21NAVY]

Arthur,

I thought you may reply to this thread since you have a Colt 28 Navy. Did you say your buffer pilot is in the white with a hole? If so, I am guessing your 28 Navy has a serial number higher than 10,000. Not because of the color, but because of the hole.

 

Would you post a picture. I have never seen a Colt era 28 Navy buffer pilot that has a hole. Or was blue in color.

 

Do you think 21Navy's buffer pilot is a Colt pilot?

 

Great post. The blueprints in Thompson: The American Legend are worth the price of the book. I really appreciate how you study the fine detail of these prints. That is a lesson we can all take note of.

 

Thank you.

The colt buffer pictured above in the white, if original to the gun is mid-3,000 S/N

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

Arthur,

I thought you may reply to this thread since you have a Colt 28 Navy. Did you say your buffer pilot is in the white with a hole? If so, I am guessing your 28 Navy has a serial number higher than 10,000. Not because of the color, but because of the hole.

 

Would you post a picture. I have never seen a Colt era 28 Navy buffer pilot that has a hole. Or was blue in color.

 

Do you think 21Navy's buffer pilot is a Colt pilot?

 

Great post. The blueprints in Thompson: The American Legend are worth the price of the book. I really appreciate how you study the fine detail of these prints. That is a lesson we can all take note of.

 

Thank you.

 

I'll post a pic of my in the white with hole Colt Navy TSMG pilot/buffer.

 

It looks as though 21Navy's is Kosher Colt.

 

My Colt is at the bottom of the production. But Colt Navy pilot/buffer in the white with hole have been found in Colt Navy TSMG's even as early as the 5000 range.

 

I would imagine that all the Colt Navy buffer/pilot are in the white with, or without, holes.

[TD.]

Arthur,

I look forward to the pictures.

 

I agree about the white in color (I have never seen anything but white). However, one with a hole is something I have not seen. I would think the Colt era buffer pilots with a hole are a rarity. Could you post pictures of both ends of the pilot too.

 

Thanks,

[Melvin]

Pilot from 3482.

 

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g216/koalak_2006/DSCN3432.jpg

 

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g216/koalak_2006/DSCN3433.jpg

 

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g216/koalak_2006/DSCN3434.jpg

 

 

[TD.]

Chuck,

Thanks for the great pictures. I look forward to comparing with Arthur's pictures.

 

It is a first for me! This is but one thing that makes this a great board.

 

Why don't all the Colt 28 Navy owners take a peak at their gun and chime in. It is a quick check; pictures are optional. Maybe this "hole" is more common than I would suppose.

 

Thanks

[gijive]

Here are some pictures of an original Colt Navy pilot and three variations of WWII Savage pilots. The measurements are consistent with the previously posted images.

 

 

http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp227/Colt1928/Thompson%20Pilots/Coltpilot4.jpg

 

Original Colt Navy pilot, in the white, no spring tool hole, and slightly shorter than later model Savage WWII pilots. Hole in both ends apparently for machining purposes.

 

http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp227/Colt1928/Thompson%20Pilots/Coltpilot3.jpg

 

Colt pilot with hole in front end.

 

http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp227/Colt1928/Thompson%20Pilots/Coltpilot2.jpg

 

Measurement of Colt pilot.

 

http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp227/Colt1928/Thompson%20Pilots/Coltpilot1.jpg

 

Colt pilot with hole in back end.

 

http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp227/Colt1928/Thompson%20Pilots/Savage1.jpg

 

Early Savage pilot, blued, spring tool hole and holes in each end. Length is the same as Colt pilot, which is shorter than later WWII pilots.

 

http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp227/Colt1928/Thompson%20Pilots/Savage2.jpg

 

Another view showing overall length.

 

http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp227/Colt1928/Thompson%20Pilots/Savage4.jpg

 

Three Savage made pilots, two blued, one in the white. Two pilots on right have solid ends, but have spring tool hole.

 

http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp227/Colt1928/Thompson%20Pilots/Savage3.jpg

 

Another view showing solid front ends.

 

The Colt pilot shown in these pictures is from a 1928 Navy Model in the 12,000 serial number range. I had a different Colt Navy in the 5,000 serial number range that had an identical pilot with no spring tool hole. In addition, I have taken apart and examined a couple of other Colt Navy Model's that had the same type of pilots with no spring tool hole. Hope this information helps.

Edited January 3, 2009 by gijive

[21NAVY]

Here are some pictures of an original Colt Navy pilot and three variations of WWII Savage pilots. The measurements are consistent with the previously posted images.

 

 

http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp227/Colt1928/Thompson%20Pilots/Coltpilot4.jpg

 

Original Colt Navy pilot, in the white, no spring tool hole, and slightly shorter than later model Savage WWII pilots. Hole in both ends appraently for machining purposes.

 

http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp227/Colt1928/Thompson%20Pilots/Coltpilot3.jpg

 

Colt pilot with hole in front end.

 

http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp227/Colt1928/Thompson%20Pilots/Coltpilot2.jpg

 

Measurement of Colt pilot.

 

http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp227/Colt1928/Thompson%20Pilots/Coltpilot1.jpg

 

Colt pilot with hole in back end.

 

http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp227/Colt1928/Thompson%20Pilots/Savage1.jpg

 

Early Savage pilot, blued, spring tool hole and holes in each end. Length is the same as Colt pilot, which is shorter than later WWII pilots.

 

http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp227/Colt1928/Thompson%20Pilots/Savage2.jpg

 

Another view showing overall length.

 

http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp227/Colt1928/Thompson%20Pilots/Savage4.jpg

 

Three Savage made pilots, two blued, one in the white. Two pilots on right have solid ends, but have spring tool hole.

 

http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp227/Colt1928/Thompson%20Pilots/Savage3.jpg

 

Another view showing solid front ends.

 

The Colt pilot shown in these pictures is from a 1928 Navy Model in the 12,000 serial number range. I had a different Colt Navy in the 5,000 serial number range that had an identical pilot with no spring tool hole. In addition, I have taken apart and examined a couple of other Colt Navy Model's that had the same type of pilots with no spring tool hole. Hope this information helps.

THanks for the pictures!, I never knew there so many subtle variations in Pilots. Very interesting.

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

Mine is just like Melvin's #3482 Colt Navy. In the white, holes at both ends, radius ends, and the spring compression tool hole, but mine is closer to the end. More like the one pictured on page 30 of Frank's "American Thunder II" where one of the Army's Aberdeen Proving Ground Colt Navy's parts are exposed.

 

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b56/Polythemus/ColtNavyPB1.jpg

 

 

 

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b56/Polythemus/ColtNavyPB2.jpg

 

 

BOLTS RULE!!!

SPROLES IS GOD!!!

Edited January 4, 2009 by Arthur Fliegenheimer

[TD.]

Arthur,

Your must have x-ray vision if you can see that hole in the rod in the picture on Page 30 of Frank's book without knowing it is there! With a magnifying glass, I only think I can see it. But nice find!

 

Since there is a difference in the location of the hole in your's and Chuck's Colt era pilot rods, I wonder (out loud) if this may have been a field modification performed after the Thompson's left Hartford. Or performed at Hartford after a number of 28 Navy's were sold and the comments received from the buyers indicated a need for this hole. I feel certain the US Marines would not hesitate to provide feedback on something that would make the disassembly of their Thompson's easier.

 

I am not surprised with the differences given this was not a per se production item, but used to convert the Model of 1921 Thompson to the Model of 1928 Thompson. Given the Auto-Ordnance success rate on other conversions (1923 & 1297), I would guess these rods were manufactured in small batches over a period of time.

 

Again, this would be a great thread for others with 28 Navy's to join and maybe post a few pictures. Do you have one like Arthur's or Chuck's? Or another variation?

 

And don't forget the World War II variations. gijive (another Chuck) posted some great pictures of the military versions that will make excellent reference material. Do you have a military version not shown in gijive's excellent post.

 

You can buy all the books, but this is but another example of information you will find only on our Board.

[21NAVY]

Arthur,

Your must have x-ray vision if you can see that hole in the rod in the picture on Page 30 of Frank's book without knowing it is there! With a magnifying glass, I only think I can see it. But nice find!

 

Since there is a difference in the location of the hole in your's and Chuck's Colt era pilot rods, I wonder (out loud) if this may have been a field modification performed after the Thompson's left Hartford. Or performed at Hartford after a number of 28 Navy's were sold and the comments received from the buyers indicated a need for this hole. I feel certain the US Marines would not hesitate to provide feedback on something that would make the disassembly of their Thompson's easier.

 

I am not surprised with the differences given this was not a per se production item, but used to convert the Model of 1921 Thompson to the Model of 1928 Thompson. Given the Auto-Ordnance success rate on other conversions (1923 & 1297), I would guess these rods were manufactured in small batches over a period of time.

 

Again, this would be a great thread for others with 28 Navy's to join and maybe post a few pictures. Do you have one like Arthur's or Chuck's? Or another variation?

 

And don't forget the World War II variations. gijive (another Chuck) posted some great pictures of the military versions that will make excellent reference material. Do you have a military version not shown in gijive's excellent post.

 

You can buy all the books, but this is but another example of information you will find only on our Board.

Thanks for all the excellent posts and photos on this. Being a newbie to the Boards, I was afraid of being laughed off the planet for asking what might have been a silly question.

 

 

[gijive]

Arthur,

 

Not trying to be argumentative here, since I pretty much agree with all your previous posts on Colt Thompson minutiae. Unless you have an original copy of that 1930 dated photo in Frank's book, I don't see how anyone could tell if there is a hole drilled in the pilot pictured in that photo. My guess would be that there isn't, since the photo is dated shortly after 1928 Navy Model was marketed. I have to agree with TD on this one, I wonder if the law enforcement agencies or whoever previously owned the Navy Models with the pictured pilots with the hole, didn't make the modification themselves. After all, it probably became apparent after the WWII models were being produced that it is a heck of a lot easier to replace the spring and pilot assembly with the spring tool hole feature. The dissimilar hole locations and radiusing on the ends of the pilots pictured makes one think the pilots could have been modified by a previous owner.

 

The Colt pilot I pictured, came from a gun sold to a police agency in 1934 and was sold to a dealer in 1970. I know where the gun was since 1970 and it was never modified by the dealer. The part is original to the gun. I am not saying that the military or previous owners couldn't have requested the modification, I just don't think they came from Auto-Ordnance that way. Look at the Savage pilot pictured in my post. It was most likely copied directly from an original Auto-Ordnance 1928 pilot, the dimensions and length are the same. The only difference is the hole at the end which was obviously a good idea and became a standard feature on WWII 1928 pilots. The Army may have suggested the feature to Auto-Ordnance, but pilots, sans hole, were obviously still being sold to law enforcement agencies in 1934.

[Bridgeport28A1]

I have a question about 28 pilot lengths. I have several extra 28 pilots, one a WWII "S" marked pilot, another an unmarked 28 pilot with a blue finish.

 

http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r187/roopsahl/IMG_2403.jpg

 

The "S" marked WWII pilot length 4.525 inches The unmarked "Blue" pilot length is 4.310 inches

 

http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r187/roopsahl/IMG_2406.jpg

 

"S" marked pilot is on the left Unmarked "Blue" pilot is on the right

 

Both exhibit radius on their ends and both have the hole through the shaft. The unmarked pilot has machining marks and I have always believed it to be a post WWII West Hurley part. Am I correct in that belief?

 

Ross

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

Arthur,

 

Not trying to be argumentative here, since I pretty much agree with all your previous posts on Colt Thompson minutiae. Unless you have an original copy of that 1930 dated photo in Frank's book, I don't see how anyone could tell if there is a hole drilled in the pilot pictured in that photo. My guess would be that there isn't, since the photo is dated shortly after 1928 Navy Model was marketed. I have to agree with TD on this one, I wonder if the law enforcement agencies or whoever previously owned the Navy Models with the pictured pilots with the hole, didn't make the modification themselves. After all, it probably became apparent after the WWII models were being produced that it is a heck of a lot easier to replace the spring and pilot assembly with the spring tool hole feature. The dissimilar hole locations and radiusing on the ends of the pilots pictured makes one think the pilots could have been modified by a previous owner.

 

The Colt pilot I pictured, came from a gun sold to a police agency in 1934 and was sold to a dealer in 1970. I know where the gun was since 1970 and it was never modified by the dealer. The part is original to the gun. I am not saying that the military or previous owners couldn't have requested the modification, I just don't think they came from Auto-Ordnance that way. Look at the Savage pilot pictured in my post. It was most likely copied directly from an original Auto-Ordnance 1928 pilot, the dimensions and length are the same. The only difference is the hole at the end which was obviously a good idea and became a standard feature on WWII 1928 pilots. The Army may have suggested the feature to Auto-Ordnance, but pilots, sans hole, were obviously still being sold to law enforcement agencies in 1934.

 

Chuck,

 

I do not see the point in the hole myself since extricating the pilot/buffer and spring out of the receiver and replacing it is not an onerous task. If one where doing this on an assembly line of TSMG's, then the assist of a tool would be prudent. My only objection was to the part of your post that stated a Colt Navy pilot/buffer could be distinguished by its absence of a hole for the spring compression tool. I noted that the hole does not appear in the AOC blueprint for this part, but the 45 degree radius of the ends is in the 1928 AOC blueprint. I can not tell by the pic if yours has the radius. If not, it would seem to be just another anomaly to the overall AOC procedures concerning the Colt TSMG.

 

The fact that the PD had their Colt Navy from 1934 until 1970 does not preclude the possibility that parts from other Colt Navy TSMG's in their department were not interchanged when performing maintenance during the ensuing 36 years. If there was a hole in one of the other PD's Colt Navy TSMG pilot/buffers it wouldn't really prove anthing either.

 

Whether AOC was in the hole (no pun intended) business before WWII is hard to say since it is not documented, Perhaps Frank can get a hold of his photo negative and confirm this, but I submit that there is a hole in the 1930 photo of the U.S. Army APG owned Colt Navy. Did the Army armory do this? Did PD"s do it to their Colt Navy pilot/buffer in the 1930's? What does this signify other than this was an idea that came along before it was de rigueur for the WWII Savage/AO TSMG's pilot/buffer.

 

The blueprint revisions that Hill has in his book regarding the Navy buffer/pilot are revised only until January of 1935. There may have been future revisions.

Edited January 5, 2009 by Arthur Fliegenheimer

[gijive]

Arthur,

 

Just for the record, the police agency of the gun I now have had two Colt Navy Thompsons. One was in the 8000 serial number range and the other 12,000 range, as previously stated. Both were delivered from AOC in 1934; there is FOIA information to confirm this. I examined both guns in the early 1980's and both had identical pilots without the hole. Yes, the pilots and other parts could have been switched during subsequent cleanings, but they were identifical. You're correct, this isn't conclusive proof that all 1928 pilots didn't have the hole. I just never saw one from an original gun with the hole and, of course, haven't examined that many.

 

I was just speculating that the hole was a WWII idea since the only original pilots I had observed with a hole were Savage marked. Certainly there could have been a blueprint revision after 1935 which would allow for some late numbered guns to have the modification. If Frank can locate a clearer copy of that photo in his book, I'll be interested to see if the pilot with hole was a feature in 1930. I just think the empirical evidence suggests otherwise.

 

This has been an interesting discussion.

Edited January 6, 2009 by gijive

[gijive]

Both exhibit radius on their ends and both have the hole through the shaft. The unmarked pilot has machining marks and I have always believed it to be a post WWII West Hurley part. Am I correct in that belief?

 

Ross

 

Ross, I have one like that also. I didn't post a picture because I wasn't sure of its origin. I have always believed it to be a West Hurley part, but don't know for sure.

[dalbert]

All,

 

I just added a link to this excellent thread in the Thompson Reference Thread Index, which is a pinned index at the top of the board.

 

Thanks!

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

[newtommygunner]

my navy colt is in the white and does not have the hole ser# 8543.