NAC Thompson

[TD.]

The NAC marked Thompson's certainly do cause a lot of problems in the firearms community. There are generally two types of NAC Thompson's:

 

Jim c 351's Savage Thompson is a perfect example of one type. A complete production Thompson Submachine Gun manufactured by Colt or one of the WWII manufacturers that was imported into the USA and found its way to Numrich Arms. For a reason only known to the then employees at Numrich Arms, some/all of these Thompson guns were marked with the letters NAC, usually at the end of the serial number. This NAC suffix may or may not be part of the serial number on the IRS/ATF form. These Thompson's are considered Colt or WWII production Thompsons that happen to have a NAC marking. The NAC marking should not have an affect on value or provenance.

 

The second type of Thompson found with a NAC marking is much more troublesome. These are the "crate Thompsons," the ones found in the crates of Thompson assets purchased by George Numrich from Frederic A. Willis in 1951. While complete Thompson guns were found in the crates, these complete guns are mostly likely the prototype and Model of 1919 guns. The Thompson guns found on the market today that cause the most concern are the ones George Numrich manufactured from parts originally manufactured by Colt, Savage and possibly Auto-Ordnance Bridgeport. In essence, George Numrich took all the receivers he found, applied a serial number that contained the letters NAC as a prefix or suffix, registered the receivers with the IRS, and began assembling Thompson guns to sell on the market place. The most common of these "NAC" or "crate" Thompsons are the ones obtained from the Department of Virginia State Police in Richmond, Virginia by J. Curtis Earl in 1974. Most of these guns have Colt manufactured receivers with the 1922 patent dates. Serial numbers are NAC 1, NAC 2, NAC 3, etc. Even though the receivers are manufactured by Colt's, these are not Colt production Thompson Submachine Guns and should not be valued as such. These are parts guns manufactured by Numrich Arms Company in the early 1950's from the left over Thompson assets. Additional 1921/8 and M1 Thompson's were manufactured by Numrich Arms using Savage receivers and left over parts. To date, there has been no observed 1928 style Thompson manufactured by Numrich Arms from the "crates" using an Auto-Ordnance Bridgeport receiver. One or more may exist but I have not seen it. There is no Colt era or WWII provenance to these guns. However, this is a legitimate Thompson variation that has its place in the history of the Thompson gun.

 

Aside from the marketing skills of J. Curtis Earl, these NAC or crate Thompson guns held very little value or collector interest over the years. They were mainly used as shooters. The 1986 machine gun ban changed that. Now any registered Thompson Submachine Gun has a lot of value. With many novices entering the machine gun marketplace, the letters "NAC" on the receiver mean nothing to them. If they purchase a Savage Thompson like described by Jim C 351, above, no harm is done. If they purchase a "Colt Thompson" with the serial number NAC 8 and a mixture of Colt and WWII parts for $40,000, they have paid too much - and probably don't know it or understand why. After all, the receiver says Colt's!

 

There is still much to learn about this Thompson variation.

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

George Numrich took all the receivers he found, applied a serial number that contained the letters NAC as a prefix or suffix, registered the receivers with the IRS, and began assembling Thompson guns to sell on the market place.

 

"Assembling" is the operative word.. As to using the term "manufacturing" in connection with George Numrich and the Thompson Submachine Gun, Tman's clarification as to ATF's use of the term "manufacturer" seems to be the definitive definition in this case. As we know, George Numrich never actually manufactured any TSMG receivers from scratch and never produced a TSMG stamped with either his Mamaroneck, N. Y or West Hurley, New York business address.

 

 

Posted 05 May 2006 - 03:03 PM

 

AF,

If he (Numrich) had to assemble the guns from parts then he would be considered the 'manufacturer'. We run into this now with guys assembling AR's for sale using other makers lowers.

[TD.]

Believe what you want...

[jim c 351]

Has an officer from either of the 2 Thompson clubs ever tried to contact George Numrich's son and inquired as to the make and serial numbers of the 80 crate guns/receivers? On official club letterhead , of course.

Perhaps you might tell him you would like to do a display at a major gun show honoring his father, George, for his contribution to the legend of the Tommygun and need much more info to accomplish this.

Jim C

[TSMGguy]

Excellent post at #26; thanks TD!

 

Would still like eventually to find out how some NAC suffix marked Savage production M1928A1 TSMGs with original matching serial numbers came to have parts not originally used by Savage. On my gun, these include the pin style pivot and safety, blued (not bright) bolt, plain actuator, and butt stock with reinforcing bolt. I understand that some of these parts were produced post war as spares and are not found on unmodified guns originally made in (or before) 1941.

 

Could it be that these guns were provided as military assistance to some foreign government that applied no additional markings, but did install the later parts, possibly in the belief that they were somehow improved in design over the originals?

 

The pivot plate on any TSMG has to be removed in order to install a new pivot and safety. Unless someone knows what they're doing and exercises care, this can result in scratches and other obvious signs of prying. On my gun, though, this area is clean, with no evidence of tampering.

 

Are all Savage produced TSMGs with NAC suffixes and matching serial numbers imports? Did they come from more than one source? Don't know.

[TD.]

TSMG,

So many questions, so few answers. What I have found in my research of NAC Thompsons is that each gun speaks for itself. Yes, there are small batches of information pertaining to several guns but a lot of small batches exist. As I stated previously, for anyone to make an educated guess about the history of your 1928 NAC marked Savage Thompson, a FOIA request is the first step. You already have much more information on the prior owners than most people. Let's do the FOIA request; it is one of the few free requests the government still offers!

I did not know you had to remove the pivot plate to remove the safety and fire control lever. Maybe I mis-understood.

bartomark,

Thank you for the additional pictures. It looks like a very nice Savage Thompson. I especially like the early style ejector. Be sure and join The American Thompson Association and/or The Thompson Collectors Association and attend one or both Show & Shoots by both organizations each year. Your Thompson knowledge will vastly increase by the end of one show.

Jim C 351,

I tried your approach several years ago with a much simpler question. No response. I have heard they do not want to be bothered with requests for this type of information. I have not given up but it is not something that is active on my research agenda.

Arthur,

How do you know 1036NAC was imported by Numrich Arms in 1956?

 

All good stuff!!!

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

Believe what you want...

 

I believe what you stated:

George Numrich registered the receivers with the IRS, and began assembling Thompson guns to sell on the market place.

[TD.]

The complete quote is much more accurate! But I enjoy the banter.

 

The Thompson guns found on the market today that cause the most concern are the ones George Numrich manufactured from parts originally manufactured by Colt, Savage and possibly Auto-Ordnance Bridgeport. In essence, George Numrich took all the receivers he found, applied a serial number that contained the letters NAC as a prefix or suffix, registered the receivers with the IRS, and began assembling Thompson guns to sell on the market place.

[gijive]

 

Could it be that these guns were provided as military assistance to some foreign government that applied no additional markings, but did install the later parts, possibly in the belief that they were somehow improved in design over the originals?

 

The pivot plate on any TSMG has to be removed in order to install a new pivot and safety. Unless someone knows what they're doing and exercises care, this can result in scratches and other obvious signs of prying. On my gun, though, this area is clean, with no evidence of tampering.

 

 

TSMGguy,

 

The parts could have been replaced by anyone that had the gun after WWII, including Numrich or the dealer you purchased it from.

 

In addition, the pivot plate does not have to be completely removed to remove the pivot and safety levers. The tension springs that hold them in place merely have to be depressed and the parts can be easily removed without removing the entire pivot plate.

[TSMGguy]

 

Could it be that these guns were provided as military assistance to some foreign government that applied no additional markings, but did install the later parts, possibly in the belief that they were somehow improved in design over the originals?

 

 

 

TSMGguy,

 

The parts could have been replaced by anyone that had the gun after WWII, including Numrich or the dealer you purchased it from.

 

 

This doesn't explain other NAC suffix guns with the same modifications, including bartomark's, unless Numrich made the mods, or the mods were done elsewhere before being imported. Why would Numrich (or anyone else) so modify complete guns that were in almost new condition? Don't know.

 

I didn't purchase my gun from a dealer. It came from the first retail owner, who bought it in the early 1950s from a chain sporting goods store that got it directly from Numrich. The PO states that he did not modify the gun. Indeed, he was unaware of the differences when I asked. "That's the way it came," he said.

 

 

 

 

[TSMGguy]

Heres a NAC suffix M1928A1 for sale. It has the pin style pivot and safety, plain actuator and butt stock with cross bolt, as so many that I have seen over the years do.

 

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=294124804

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

$30K "no reserve!"

[darrylta]

The seller is jerk in my opinion. I had a weird / bad experience with him in the past with him being

unforthright and dishonest, not someone you want to deal with in a NFA purchase!

-Darryl

[bill luongo]

Gentlemen,

I've been enjoying this board for a few years but this is my first post. I have owned about 20 Thompsons through the years including 5 Colts. I still have one Colt, a West Hurley 28A(yep A model special order no compensator) and an AOC Bridgeport 28A1 XNAC. I bought the Bridgeport along with two S&W 76's in June of 1985,sold the S&W's and recouped everything spent so basically the 28 was free. It is pretty much the same as when I got it, same wood and mismatched Savage lower.I made it into my personal gun with a few upgrades, I think I even put a Colt trigger in it. Considering how few of the over half million 21,s and 28,s made still exist I don't think we should worry to much about minor discrepancies whether they were done at an arsenal or not. So here is my "Rough & Tumble" XNAC Shooter.

http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x421/wmluongo/004-2.jpg

http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x421/wmluongo/008.jpg

http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x421/wmluongo/010.jpg

http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x421/wmluongo/011.jpg

http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x421/wmluongo/006.jpg

http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x421/wmluongo/007.jpg

[mnshooter]

Great gun and great photos. Thanks for posting.

[TD.]

bill luongo,

A great first post. Thank you for sharing pictures of your Thompson.

 

This is a very interesting Thompson in that it is in a serial number range often seen with the "AC" Auto-Ordnance Bridgeport variation (see picture). The US and A1 markings along with the WB or Waldemar Broberg inspector stamp indicates it was very likely purchased by the US government. The "x" suffix after the serial number, again common in this range of serial numbers, shows there was some problem with duplicate serial numbers at Auto-Ordnance in this block of numbers.

 

I would like to know the history of this fine Thompson. Can you provide any information on the prior owners? Have you done a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request. Obviously it passed through Numrich Arms at some point in time.

 

Here is a picture of a close relative to your Thompson gun.

[TSMGguy]

I don't think we should worry to much about minor discrepancies whether they were done at an arsenal or not.

 

Not worried, Bill, just curious. This question is another part of the history of these guns.

[hawksnest]

Bill: Nice Thompson. Thanks for posting the pictures. I have a N.A.C. suffix 1928A1. Your's is the first I've seen with an "X" after the serial number and before the NAC suffix. The letters N.A.C. on my Thompson are all evenly spaced and in line, as if it they were stamped at the same time. Mine is stamped "Tommy Gun" on the top of the reciever near the rear sight.

[jim c 351]

Why on earth did Numrich stamp NAC on TSMG that they did not manufacture???

Well I wonder if this could be a partial explanation.

I just received a August 2012 copy of the Blue Press published by Dillon.

On page 11 there is an article by Peter Caroline.

I found the first paragraph interesting and possibly the reason the non crate Thompsons were stamped NAC and also why most are mismatched in some way.

 

For those who don't get the Blue Press I will copy here.

 

By Peter Caroline.

"Some years before the congressional grinches passed the GCA of 1968, I had what I thought was the best moonlighting job in the world. My employer of record was the US Army, but in my off duty hours I worked for an arms import firm. This outfit bought surplus or confiscated arms from armed forces and police dept. all over the world. These were imported as disassembled parts, parts being subjected to lower duty than whole guns. It was my job to match up the parts and reassemble them for resale sale."

 

 

So----It could be that your Thompson has pinned safe/selector or mismatched trigger frame because of Peter Caroline. It was all the evade duty taxes.

 

Jim C

Edited July 11, 2012 by jim c 351

[TSMGguy]

So----It could be that your Thompson has pinned safe/selector or mismatched trigger frame because of Peter Caroline. It was all the evade duty taxes.

 

Jim C

 

Best theory I've seen yet.

 

The frame matches on my NAC suffix M1928A1. I guess Peter did a nice job of matching things up.

 

Thanks, Jim!