Remington - Thompson 45 Cartridge

[james m]

I ran across this(below)which is an except from an document published by the American Institute of Criminal Law in an article posted on the internet. Has anyone here ever been able to examine a Thompson chambered for this cartridge?

Jim

 

Quote

 

"An interesting development of the year 1922 was the Remington-Thompson .45 cartridge. This had a case or shell about one-eighth inch longer than standard, that it might not accidently be fired in a .45 caliber pistol. Results would have been disastrous because of the excessive pressure.

 

This Remington-Thompson load used a 250 grain bullet driven at a muzzle velocity of 1,450 f.s. It had a penetration of about fifteen boards at the muzzle, and better than eight at the 300 yard mark. However its production was abandoned when it was found that the accuracy was not as great as that of the 230 grain standard load, and its 1050 foot pounds muzzle energy as against 430 foot pounds for the standard load did not appear to deliver the increased shocking power which was expected of it. Guns using this cartridge were never sold commercially, although very complete tests were run by the Auto-Ordnance Corporation."

 

 

This law article was published in 1932-1933 which means it predates the NFA of 1934. This,to me, makes the efforts outlined below very interesting.

 

 

 

Quote:

 

"Every effort has been made to make the Thompson gun available only to properly constituted authorities. In past years sales were handled through many large sporting goods dealers; the burden of determining the integrity of a purchaser thus falling on the dealer's shoulders. Experience has taught the makers of this weapon that such a policy is greatly abused, corrupt employees making sales to emmisaries of gangdom and falsifying records to make the transaction appear "regular." A new policy now in force will eliminate these troubles.

 

Police Departments, sheriffs and District Attorneys' forces, penitentiaries, prisons and jails, responsible banks, and bonded armored truck despatch services may purchase the various models and equipment. However, sales are no longer made through jobbers, dealers, or agents. The Auto-Ordnance Corporation has made the Federal Laboratories of Pittsburgh, Pa., its exclusive distributor. This Corporation sells direct to the above mentioned agencies only after proper investigation of the buyer. Purchases are made on officially signed orders from chiefs of police, mayors, city purchasing agents, or officials occupying such capacities in their localities. Papers must be signed, certifying that neither the weapon nor any of its accessories may become the property of an individual.

 

This new arrangement prohibits a sheriff from purchasing a sub-machine gun and taking it with him when he retires from office. For the gun is sold to the department only. This also applies to any other purchasing organization.

 

No private individual may purchase a Thompson gun. There are no exceptions.

 

In other words, the Auto-Ordnance Corporation has carefully regulated the sale of its products, assisting law enforcement agen- [Page 1114] cies in two ways-giving them a gun which will promptly settle an argument with a law-breaker; and preventing these portable machine guns from falling into improper hands. "

 

 

 

 

Edited July 24, 2009 by james m

[TAS1921AC]

That round was chambered in the unsuccessful 1923 Thompson. There's one in a French museum and one in the West Point Collection but very few were ever made.

[couchcommando]

I wonder how the .460 rowland would stack up against the R-P round performance wise? Not sure I would test it in a '21 or '28 model, but the M1A1 should handle the excessive pressure just fine. After all, the Rowland was made for the Government model 45, a highly modified and strengthened GM 45. Anybody with a M1A1 want to volunteer to be the guini pig?

[Doug Richardson]

That round was chambered in the unsuccessful 1923 Thompson. There's one in a French museum and one in the West Point Collection but very few were ever made.

 

 

Neither the gun in France (which is not in a museum - it belongs to the French Government) nor the one at the West Point museum are Model 1923s and neither is chambered for the .45 Remington-Thompson (R-T) cartridge. Both are Model 1922s although the one at West Point was extensively modified as a prototype of the 1923. There is only one Thompson known to have been chambered for the R-T and that gun is in a police department in Illinois. Only one Model 1923 Extra Heavy Barrel gun is known to have been made and that gun remained with Auto-Ordnance until it was broken up for parts. It is not known what the caliber was. You can read all about the various Thompson models in my latest book "Thompson Submachine Gun - Models".

 

[TAS1921AC]

I wonder how a police deptartment in Illinois got ahold of something like that.

[TD.]

Doug,

 

I have to disagree with you about the existence of a Model of 1922 Thompson. All the guns you reference are Model of 1923 Thompson guns. I agree there are different variations of the Model of 1923 Thompson as Auto-Ordnance was trying to find something that would sell. Unfortunately, none of the variations or combinations of parts produced a winner.

 

Jean Huron, a well known gun writer from France, lists the French Military Thompson as a Model of 1923 in his book on the Thompson, Les pistolets-mitrailleurs Thompson. His writings about the Thompson in the French magazine, Gazette des Armes, also list this French Military Thompson as a Model of 1923.

 

George Goll, Oscar Payne and Theodore Eickhoff were extensively interviewed by William Helmer for his now famous book, The Gun That Made the Twenties Roar, and none of them said a word about a Model of 1922 Thompson. Footnote number 6 for Chapter Four specifically references George Goll recalling only five Model 1923 Thompson’s being built. I have read Helmer’s notes and letters regarding his interviews of these three gentlemen and found no reference to a Model of 1922 Thompson.

 

Recently, Tracie Hill located an AOC blueprint of a prototype Thompson dated in 1922 that could be construed as a Model of 1922 Thompson. It is listed by AOC as a Model F. A copy of the blueprint can be found in The Ultimate Thompson Book on Page 821 (Fig. 1195). There is no evidence this Model F of 1922 advanced beyond the drawing board.

 

TD.

[couchcommando]

What was different about this model F? Was the receiver the same, just made a longer barrel?

[Doug Richardson]

Doug,

 

I have to disagree with you about the existence of a Model of 1922 Thompson. All the guns you reference are Model of 1923 Thompson guns. I agree there are different variations of the Model of 1923 Thompson as Auto-Ordnance was trying to find something that would sell. Unfortunately, none of the variations or combinations of parts produced a winner.

 

Jean Huron, a well known gun writer from France, lists the French Military Thompson as a Model of 1923 in his book on the Thompson, Les pistolets-mitrailleurs Thompson. His writings about the Thompson in the French magazine, Gazette des Armes, also list this French Military Thompson as a Model of 1923.

 

George Goll, Oscar Payne and Theodore Eickhoff were extensively interviewed by William Helmer for his now famous book, The Gun That Made the Twenties Roar, and none of them said a word about a Model of 1922 Thompson. Footnote number 6 for Chapter Four specifically references George Goll recalling only five Model 1923 Thompson’s being built. I have read Helmer’s notes and letters regarding his interviews of these three gentlemen and found no reference to a Model of 1922 Thompson.

 

Recently, Tracie Hill located an AOC blueprint of a prototype Thompson dated in 1922 that could be construed as a Model of 1922 Thompson. It is listed by AOC as a Model F. A copy of the blueprint can be found in The Ultimate Thompson Book on Page 821 (Fig. 1195). There is no evidence this Model F of 1922 advanced beyond the drawing board.

 

TD.

 

 

Please don't disagree with me unless you have done the research. I assume Jean Huon (not Huron) is a personal acquaintance of yours as he is mine and that you have discussed this with him as I have. He did no research on this subject. He just took it for granted. As a matter of fact, Huon helped me get to the bottom of the identity of the French gun because he was as interested as I was.

 

Facts become clearer with time and more discoveries. Facts are not determined by a consensus, but by research and the research indicates that the 1922 was a true, if not well documented, model.

 

I assume you went to France to inspect the gun by getting through the French military security as I have. I assume you have studied the evolution of the gun via original drawings as I have. Unless you have personally done the research. a third hand debate quoting others is pointless. The Model 1922 is the elephant in the room. Ignore it but it is still there.

 

Of course, you could say that there is only one Thompson gun - the 1921 and all others are variations. But how many of each do you have to have before it seems appropriate to call it a model? So far I have found six of the Model 1922s whereas the well documented 1923 Extra Heavy Barrel model (there was also a light barrel version) existed only as a single gun which never left AO.

 

Read my book "Thompson Submachine Gun - Models" and then quote me. Better yet, do your own research, write a book and then we can have a real debate.

 

 

[dalbert]

Doug,

 

I have to disagree with you about the existence of a Model of 1922 Thompson. All the guns you reference are Model of 1923 Thompson guns. I agree there are different variations of the Model of 1923 Thompson as Auto-Ordnance was trying to find something that would sell. Unfortunately, none of the variations or combinations of parts produced a winner.

 

Jean Huron, a well known gun writer from France, lists the French Military Thompson as a Model of 1923 in his book on the Thompson, Les pistolets-mitrailleurs Thompson. His writings about the Thompson in the French magazine, Gazette des Armes, also list this French Military Thompson as a Model of 1923.

 

George Goll, Oscar Payne and Theodore Eickhoff were extensively interviewed by William Helmer for his now famous book, The Gun That Made the Twenties Roar, and none of them said a word about a Model of 1922 Thompson. Footnote number 6 for Chapter Four specifically references George Goll recalling only five Model 1923 Thompson’s being built. I have read Helmer’s notes and letters regarding his interviews of these three gentlemen and found no reference to a Model of 1922 Thompson.

 

Recently, Tracie Hill located an AOC blueprint of a prototype Thompson dated in 1922 that could be construed as a Model of 1922 Thompson. It is listed by AOC as a Model F. A copy of the blueprint can be found in The Ultimate Thompson Book on Page 821 (Fig. 1195). There is no evidence this Model F of 1922 advanced beyond the drawing board.

 

TD.

 

 

Please don't disagree with me unless you have done the research. I assume Jean Huon (not Huron) is a personal acquaintance of yours as he is mine and that you have discussed this with him as I have. He did no research on this subject. He just took it for granted. As a matter of fact, Huon helped me get to the bottom of the identity of the French gun because he was as interested as I was.

 

Facts become clearer with time and more discoveries. Facts are not determined by a consensus, but by research and the research indicates that the 1922 was a true, if not well documented, model.

 

I assume you went to France to inspect the gun by getting through the French military security as I have. I assume you have studied the evolution of the gun via original drawings as I have. Unless you have personally done the research. a third hand debate quoting others is pointless. The Model 1922 is the elephant in the room. Ignore it but it is still there.

 

Of course, you could say that there is only one Thompson gun - the 1921 and all others are variations. But how many of each do you have to have before it seems appropriate to call it a model? So far I have found six of the Model 1922s whereas the well documented 1923 Extra Heavy Barrel model (there was also a light barrel version) existed only as a single gun which never left AO.

 

Read my book "Thompson Submachine Gun - Models" and then quote me. Better yet, do your own research, write a book and then we can have a real debate.

 

Doug,

 

You are mistaken in your conclusions on this subject. The "Model of 1922 Thompson," as you describe, is incorrect. It is a contrivance of designation on your part, as you have noted. I applaud your research into the variations of the Model of 1923, and/or Military Model Thompsons, however your arrival at a new model designation is purely your own choice and effort, with no basis in historical fact. Your research into the variations deserves recognition, however your conclusion is certainly no "elephant in the room," and fails to consider the first hand interviews and correspondence that Helmer made with the original Thompson designers while preparing "The Gun That Made The Twenties Roar," during which the subject of the Model of 1923 Thompson was discussed in detail.

 

If there is a "Model of 1922 Thompson," it is the Thompson Submachine Gun Model "F." In case you are not yet aware of this model, it is a tubular receiver Thompson with metal strip stock and grips that was designed by Auto-Ordnance in 1922. (February 27, 1922) This absolutely amazing Thompson design is pictured on page 821 of Tracie Hill's "The Ultimate Thompson Book," which is an excellent resource on the subject. This model represents a significant hurdle to your conclusions.

 

TD has performed research on this subject, and demonstrates appropriate disagreement to your assertions. He also contributed to the book mentioned above, which you should consult. While a trip to France is fun, the passport stamp is not a prerequisite for conducting research, nor is it license to summarily discount the work of others, and automatically drive acceptance of your conclusions.

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

[reconbob]

This in-depth discussion is of great interest to me and I am sure many

others on this forum. Dougs assertion (having read his book) is that in 1922

M1921 Thompsons were modified with a heavier barrel, bipod, etc. and sold

as a "military" model, and that records exist of these sales and that 4 of the

guns are known to exist. However, these guns are in the standard .45 ACP

caliber.

The gun known as the M1923 was a similar gun - heavy barrel, bipod, etc.

but chambered for the more powerful .45 Remington cartridge. According to

Dougs research only one of these guns was made and this gun was broken

up for parts.

I agree that Doug is using his own terminology (and he admits to this)

in describing the earlier

models as "M1922", but it does appear that these are distinct variations

especially when the caliber of the guns is considered.

The M1922 vs. M1923 argument aside, are Dougs conclusions faulty or

incorrect? Do these guns not exist?

I am more interested in the actual guns than what model designations

they are given. Recollections of what was made, when it was made, and

what it was called can be sketchy when recalled by people many years after

the fact. Consider the infamous comment by Numrich (or was it Trast?) where

he claims to have purchased the "Auto-Ordnance Corporation" and all of the

ensuing discussion about whether it was the company or the crates. Likewise

if we were to interview anyone at Kahr Arms today we would be emphatically

told that they were the "original" Auto-Ordnance, etc. Considering all this I

do not think that an interview years after the fact is automatically reliable.

At any rate I appreciate all of the knowledge and research TD, Dave, Doug,

and others bring to the table and I am sure that empirical information will win

out over time as this and other topics are studied...

 

Bob

 

 

[inertord]

It would seem that model designations aside, the only way to determine if a specific Thomson is currently chambered in .45 Remingtion - Thompson, would be a physical examination with chamber casting being preformed.

 

 

 

 

 

[TD.]

Doug,

I, like David and Reconbob have respect for your research. However, the Model of 1922 designation did not come from your travels to France or elsewhere. This is a designation you came up with on your own. If you had stated it was YOUR model designation and no Auto-Ordnance literature or documention had been located to date with a Model of 1922 designation, I would not have posted.

 

You stated, "Facts are not determined by a consensus, but by research and the research indicates that the 1922 was a true, if not well documented, model." Show me the documentation for this 1922 Model. One reference to it will suffice.

 

This discussion is probably about less than ten Thompson guns. I say problably because the exact number is unknown. If Eickhoff, Payne and Goll did not use the 1922 designation when telling about the history of the Auto-Ordnance Corporation during the early 1920's, I feel comfortable with my conclusions.

 

Thank you.

TD.